MAD Combat

I am in two minds about the issue. One one hand, I do agree that the definition of "special gear" is somewhat vague, and I can see how the criteria surrounding special gear does have some flaws that need adjusting. But on the other hand, it prevents abuse. For example, I can't have a redundant shielded, troop and fighter carrying, cloaking, electronic warfare ship with cyber-infused lasers. That would be somewhat mitigated by the fact that the ship would have the rest of its stats fairly uncompetitive.

Things like cargo, passenger, troop, and hangar space should remain a thing, just with higher limits. As I said, most support class ships come down to freighters and they are meant to carry just as some are meant as transports. However, I believe a point should be added, say if cargo capacity reaches 5,000 tons or passengers reaches ten. At that point, it would be considered beyond average and expected for the class and needs extra points. I mean, it's not fair for a ship that carries made 5 tons to be hit with a point just because it can carry something. Troop and hangar space the same things. Let's go with the frigate class here. Say its average carrying capacity stands around 24 fighters and 1000 troops. Anything more requires a point. (These are just random numbers, btw. I have no clue as to what are good numbers to put here.)

The said could be put in reverse. At a certain point, large ships have decent medical facilities. They'll need to. But it's only when they are state of the art, on the level of a full-blown hospital that it becomes a point. Otherwise, we'd have to throw points out for everything that has a medbay. To me, points should be issued for things that truly give something an advantage on the battlefield or really stands out as something most ships don't have. In this case, support class and maybe even corvette class SHOULD have points in troop and hangar space due to the fact you may find that option from time to time, but it isn't very common due to its size.

With only 15 points, I really don't think we have much to worry about in regards to people loading down ships with special gear. Thus far, everyone seems to be following things quite well. Some things don't even use the entirety of the points given to them. Which is good, because if things are maxed out, individually players can't customize/modify them down the line. Take the Ageilis-class starfighter approved for the Dark Jedi. It currently sits at 15 points. It' only special gear is advanced maneuvering thrusters to legitimize a full 5 points in its agility stat. But they don't and can't have hyperdrives because of that point max. And while it may not be an issue in the overall scheme, if an individual of the group chose to use only the starfighter as their transport, they technically can't equip a hyperdrive for exceeding the system.

Then again, perhaps we can keep the fifteen points for the main four stats or drop it to say twelve and make the special gear its own things, allowing for so many features to be allowed on a single ship. That makes things complicated and unecessary, which I would believe in just trusting those who post to use common sense in how special gear is applied. After all, that is why we go through an approval process, to check and ensure no one abuses it. That's what the RPA's are meant to be doing. That's what we as a community should alos be doing as well to help out. There are those select few such as myself who do check these things often. If we see something amiss, we should not be afraid to step up and ask questions ahead of the RPA's to help get things moving and make things easier on them as well. And if it means the approval process has to move a little slower, then so be it.

That is a very good point, Lux. I am pretty sure that was on our 'to do list' for the MAD system (speaking as one of its creators, not as an RPA), but work kinda ... died on it. I have a rough list in my head, but I doubt it is fully down anywhere I have quick access to. & it is far from official.




hmmm, pretty sure there were more. Anyone else have suggestions? Ideas? Changes to my list?

Well one difference is that if it is a two point thing, the ship in question is a little bulkier & a little harder to take down (it effectively has 1 more point of damage it can soak over an identical fighter with the troops as a one point cost). Assuming, of course, the ship doesn't use the full 15 point limit. If it does, it means that some other category ends up suffering just a hair in order for the person to pack in troops.

The only debate on troops & fighters was in the Mantis thread. & enough examples can up that I agreed fighters could carry troops.

I would also like to point out, this is an RP site, not reality. Cramped really doesn't mean anything...just sayin'...

So here's a list running around in my mind.



Out of all of these, the big one I wish to discuss further is medical facility. It's not really a thing for large ships as they would be expected to have decent medbays capable of tending to a lot, the only real need for a point is basically when said medbay becomes like a hospital. However, when it comes to the support class, simply having one seems to dictate a point if its anything more than a closet with a bed. In this, I would have to disagree with needing a point. There shouldn't be any reason that a support class ship can't have a dedicated room that serves as a medbay with the proper equipment for treating minor injuries and making quick patchwork surgeries until they can get the person to a real medical facility. True that typical passenger and cargo transports may not concern themselves with them, more military and exploration based ships in this class would definitely be more likely to have them. Just my thoughts on that.

Starfighters:

Yes, without a doubt, astromechs should be a point as they do provide an advantage over those that don't as you have described. However, exactly what role does a hyperdrive actually play the requires it to have a point? As I have said, there are those who chose to simply pilot starfighters instead of larger ships. But there are those few that are maxed in the point system, yet do not carry a hyperdrive. By that, they must either disregard the system to equip one or they are forced to select a different ship than they would like to have. Back to the Ageilis-class starfighter approved for the Dark Jedi, I have a character who would be using only that, but it faces this problem. Do we really want people disregarding this system to have what they want or giving up what they want to keep to it, especially over something pointless? All the hyperdrive is good for is going to and from places or battles. True, strategy-wise, hyperdrive equipped starfighters could travel alongside the fleet for an immediate assault, but that only works for the real deal. This is an rp community in which to actually engage with someone, you should always ask and discuss a battle, at least to the point of agreeing to have one. At which point, there is nothing stopping the opposing writer from ignoring the fight, scrambling their fighters with enough time, or actually agreeing to that approach.

Another side of the situation is this. As you say, some fighters didn't have one to save money. The same goes for life support and shielding. And you have stated already in regards to shields and life support that it's assumed to be there unless stated otherwise so it doesn't need a point. It would make much more sense to have a point towards shielding as it can theoretically affect the primary stats. But at the same time, they, like hyperdrives, were just as much one fighters as they weren't on them.

Broken Up by Size:

I am having a hard time grasping what you mean by this. If you mean having particular points directed certain classes, there really isn't an option to that. And either way, the dedicated points per class are incredibly small. But points for astromechs don't carry over to other classes and troop/passenger capacity on these is a must given its incredibly small size. Support and Corvette class have points for hangar/fighter racks as they typically can't hold/don't usually hold fighters anyway as well as passenger/troop points. Everything else is only set with the points of troop and hangar space.

If you are talking about breaking down the troop and hangar points based on size, to me, it is far more reasonable to only require points for something that breaks the average of the class. Outside of that, I don't see where things are being broken up by size as everything else qualifies for every class.

Hangars of Ships:

I don't see where much of any of that has any bearing on anything. Yes, everything from frigate up would be expected to have some form of hangar for shuttles to come and go to bring in supplies, drop troops, or move personnel from ship to ship or ship to ground. Hangar space, as far as I am aware, reflects only the use of starfighters. Considering that in the idea of hangar space in any way defeats the point of it. This also is the reason for a required point for starfighter use on Support and Corvette classes, but not on anything larger because, more often than not, they carried starfighters, on average a wing or two, going higher normally with size.

Looking at the small minute details of say the Mon Cal as you mentioned begins to really add a complicated layer to all of this. It's nice to know the details of these ships, but the point of all of this is to keep it simple and go by what is stated for ships to carry. The deeper we go into details, the more we get away from the reason the M.A.D approval system was put in place. Otherwise, we return to the patent office (based on what I've heard since I never messed with it before) and this all falls apart. All we really need in any of this are the stats of agility, defense, offense, speed, and special gear, the armament, troop/passenger capacity, and starfighter count. Everything else is mostly noise for knowledge sake so we're not always going back to the wiki to find the info.

Defining What Special Gear Means:

This is really the biggest question we need to step back and look at. What does special actually mean? Basically, something that is different or stands out compared to the norm/average. That is how all the special gear should be looked at. As I said before Support and Corvette class ships typically carry cargo and/or passengers as everything Frigate or higher typically carries troops and starfighters. Because this is the norm of these classes, points towards any of these should not exist for the average of the class as a whole. The points I put in for the limit for each class was based on me going through every approved ship thus far and finding the average starfighter complement. Yes, there were some that carried less and some that carried more, but those numbers are based on the average. Anything that meets those numbers should not be charged points. Anything that does should require a point because it stands above the average. Those troop and starfighter capacities have been raised above what is normal for the class for that ship and begin to shift towards a specialty role or an enhanced craft at the very least. Nothing should be cut in half to meet a no point requirement.

Special gear should be used to reflect things that make ships fall into dedicated forms of ships such as carriers, interdictors, communication, troop transport, reflect ships that have been modified, or ships that have been given special features to push it past the regular limits most can achieve. Once again, looking at the Aegeilis starfighter, advanced maneuvering thrusters were added to legitimize the 5 point stat in agility. Did it really need to be added? Not really as some interceptors had a 5 point stats in speed or agility, but it was touch to make it really seem like it put work in to reach that level instead of just claiming it to be so.

Agreed, I don't want this whole thing becoming a headache.