Krzesimir Viggo
The First Order
Posts: 360
Affiliation: First Order
Traffic Light: Blue
|
Post by Krzesimir Viggo on Oct 14, 2019 18:34:02 GMT -8
Wookie linkThis ship was first seen in the PC video game: "StarWars: Rebellion." It served as an analog, or stand in, for the Imperial-I & -II class Star Destroyers. The armament, shields and compliment stats were comparable to the Imp-II class SD in game. As such, I believe the stated length of 398m, >1/4th the vessel it was designed to compete against(1.6km), albeit for game-play balance, seems absurd. I would like this specific example, and others like it(where the wookie article has clearly drunk to much of Whill Kahul) to be reviewed and addressed, and when necessary to make changes to the official Database entry, even if it conflicts with the Wookie page.
|
|
|
Post by Nicademus Delvardus IV on Oct 14, 2019 18:59:38 GMT -8
The terms diminutive and small in size are heavily associated with this ship so it does call to fact that this is a small ship. Now how small? Well, entries of this ship, from other sites (besides Wookieepedia and ours), put it between 300 to 500 meters. So let's look around that range for any sort of change (if one is warranted), cause I don't see this ship getting towards anything above 500 meters.
Now some sites put the armament at 24 - 30 turbolaser batteries and 20 ion cannon. Which eliminates the large amount of ion cannons, but does keep the same number of turbolasers since each battery has 6 turrets/cannons.
Now, I do want to call in the question of: "It served as an analog, or stand in, for the Imperial-I & -II class Star Destroyers" seeing as nowhere in the Wookieepedia article that this ship was built with the purpose to fight ISDs nor serve as their stand in. Its role states that it was designed as an anti-piracy vessel, meant to take on whole fleets of small craft. Now, I know you stated that the game has made this role defunct, but likely this information was taken from the game and put up as an article as a result.
Let's also be aware that the article has a contradiction. In the text, it states 240 heavy turbolaser batteries. However, in the technical specifications, it omits the batteries part. If its batteries, then likely its meant to have 40 turbolaser batteries which equal to the 240 number. Doubtful its 240 cannons individually. Likely could easy down the count of the ion cannons to a reasonable number of around 20 or so.
For size, I could see us increasing it to between 400 to 500 meters. This would increase it from the Frigate to Cruiser class. I really don't see it getting any bigger than that.
|
|
|
Post by Zion Morviael [RETIRED] on Oct 14, 2019 19:30:42 GMT -8
so, I mean... you're kind of trying to address two points in one discussion here, so, I'll do my best to give my personal opinion on each here. So just a disclaimer, this is me as a writer and community member of JvS giving my opinion here, not me as an RPA.
So, to address the poll question: you've given a very binary selection for a decidedly non-binary issue. It's kind of a Yes but No answer, right? Cause Wookieepedia doesn't have all of the answers nor all of the information listed, in which case, you have to look to other reputable sources (for me, generally Galactic-Voyage is a good second. failing that... check several RP communities own versions or wookiee, or hope wookiee has enough hints to work with). But ultimately, there is probably a half dozen, at most, examples of information on Wookieepedia that does not necessarily "line up" with some people's expectations and views. And that's why entries are open for debate by anyone and everyone when they are submitted to the database. As long as a decent source or reasoning can be provided, then changes within the database itself can be made.
Now, on to the question of the Liberator: as I pointed out in Discord, several references (not just wookiee, but also galactic-voyage, and several other fanon wiki's) all seem to reference similar armaments, compliments, and roughly similar ship size. Now, when it comes to the one source for which you keep referencing, that being the Star Wars: Rebellion game, even you admitted in the discussion in Discord that the game had no sense of proper scale. With GR-75's and MC-60's being of a similar size. So it's kind of hard to say that the game, which has no definitive size listing and has some scale issues, should overturn at least 4 or 5 other resources. It's entirely possible the ship was just scaled up for the purposes of game mechanics, no?
|
|
|
Post by Nicademus Delvardus IV on Oct 14, 2019 19:47:09 GMT -8
linkThe image linked above is from the Starship Stats book for the Star Wars RPG. According to the information, the Liberator is 1,040 meters and can carry 9,600 troops. No mention of starfighters, but it seems none of the ships mention their complements. However, it does confirm the armament to be 160 heavy turbolaser batteries (which is 960 cannons), 50 ion cannons, 6 tractor beam projectors, and 5 concussion missile tubes. Now question is: do we accept this source and make the ship that size or not? Now given the extreme differences, this would warrant such a change. However, as Zion stated, we do tend to rely on Wookeepedia for majority of our answers considering that it is a relatively reliable source. The Liberator is definitely one of the few cases where we would have had to look beyond to find any pertinent and reliable information that warranted the change. This can take time and that's why we do tend to rely on Wookieepedia and a few other resources. I am personally in favor of keeping it between the 300 to 500 range thus keeping it in the Frigate/Cruiser category.
|
|
Luxeria
Member
“Even the strongest mind can be manipulated. It’s simply a matter of finding its weakness.”
Posts: 1,898
Affiliation: Blackguard Reborn
Traffic Light: Green
|
Post by Luxeria on Oct 14, 2019 22:57:04 GMT -8
In regards to utilizing Wookiepedia, it functions as the go to guide for not only ships, but the majority of things used by players on the boards. So, using it as the primary guide for the database makes sense. Its what everone typically refers to when creating fleets prior to the creation of the database. That being said, as Zion has stated, the wiki sometimes doesn't have all the knowledge needed, in which case, other sources may need to be looked at. If similar specs can be seen amobg the sources, it's usually enough. If nothing else can be found, it is up to us as a team to work together to create something for it, which was the primary purpose of the database.
As for the Liberator, I believe if a change is to be made, it shouldn't be larger than 500 meters. As previously stated, nearly all sources average about the same in its stats aside from maybe small alterations. The info found from the starships stats in the Star Wars RPG I feel is a sole outlier in all of this and isn't enough to warrant such a change. If there were many other sources that agreed with this, it would merit being looked into, but not in this case. Changing the ship based on one source can cause issues with other players who use Liberators in their fleets. Such a changes will force them to redo it to handle the alteration and we may find those unwilling to accept it because so many other sources state it should be in the smaller ship range.
|
|
|
Post by The Admiralty OOC on Oct 23, 2019 5:59:22 GMT -8
I voted no. Simply because it a ultimately a fan edited source & should someone post a more canonical source in the submission, I think we should take it into account (Looks at the Crusader debate I had with various RPAs a bit back). That being said, It should be the First & Primary source with any others supplanting it only when directly provided (either by the submitter or other interested parties).
On the case of the Liberator & its other presented stats. I would like to remind everyone involved that regardless of how odd or unusual the RPG stats are, they are the only canonical given stats for the ship. All the other versions I have found are fan made stats. With no backing as to why they are what they are.
|
|
Krzesimir Viggo
The First Order
Posts: 360
Affiliation: First Order
Traffic Light: Blue
|
Post by Krzesimir Viggo on Nov 1, 2019 6:38:37 GMT -8
linkThe image linked above is from the Starship Stats book for the Star Wars RPG. According to the information, the Liberator is 1,040 meters and can carry 9,600 troops. No mention of starfighters, but it seems none of the ships mention their complements. However, it does confirm the armament to be 160 heavy turbolaser batteries (which is 960 cannons), 50 ion cannons, 6 tractor beam projectors, and 5 concussion missile tubes. Now question is: do we accept this source and make the ship that size or not? Now given the extreme differences, this would warrant such a change. However, as Zion stated, we do tend to rely on Wookeepedia for majority of our answers considering that it is a relatively reliable source. The Liberator is definitely one of the few cases where we would have had to look beyond to find any pertinent and reliable information that warranted the change. This can take time and that's why we do tend to rely on Wookieepedia and a few other resources. I am personally in favor of keeping it between the 300 to 500 range thus keeping it in the Frigate/Cruiser category. For clarification: You want a frigate with 160 Turbolasers(or batteries) in addition to other weapon systems? The turbolasers alone out gun Vic-IIs, making that classic ship useless. This is why I can't be happy with ship at under 950 meters. Even using the count as individual cannons it's too powerful to be balanced, particularly considering the cutting edge armor and shields listed even in the wookie article. As far as sourcing from Wookie, it's a good place to start your research. But it's format prevents it from being a reliable primary source. If Wookie is the end all be all(only primary source) then what do we do when someone, not in accordance with canon, changes the pages we're referencing? Do we change everything we have because someone decided to edit a few open source documents on a whim or as a joke?
|
|
|
Post by Nicademus Delvardus IV on Nov 1, 2019 8:42:11 GMT -8
Wookieepedia is not the end all source. I need to really emphasize that point. True, it is the primary source and a key one at that, but we do look to other resources such as other wikias for ideas on how we should probably spec out our ships. However, I will state that the issue with the Starship Stats book is that I cannot find it listed anywhere as an official source for the Star Wars RPG. Being an unofficial source, alone, brings up skepticism towards the validity of this source. Not to mention it took me quite some time to remotely find a source that gave me the details you were looking for. From an RPA point of view, it can be quite time consuming to find these extra sources beyond the usual wikias we look at now.
Now, I do know that there was a small discussion on possible modifications. We could increase the size and likely change the armament to be around 30 to 40 heavy turbolaser batteries and adjust the ion cannons, maybe add in the tractor beam projectors, but not include the concussion missile tubes. There may be a balance effort for its size, but beyond that, when we have one only source, and an unofficial source at that, giving us the length you believe it should be, it does raise the flag of suspicion on the validity of said source.
|
|
Luxeria
Member
“Even the strongest mind can be manipulated. It’s simply a matter of finding its weakness.”
Posts: 1,898
Affiliation: Blackguard Reborn
Traffic Light: Green
|
Post by Luxeria on Nov 1, 2019 11:11:53 GMT -8
As already stated, the Wookieepedia serves as the primary and first go to for ships, not the end all. Mainly as I feel that nearly everything Star Wars we use cones mostly from there. But in the cases of something seeming off or otherwise not stated, we do venture to check other wikis and find common ground among them. From there, we bring up the other sources so RPAs and others can review those stats listed from other sources. In regards to the Liberator, I still feel no change is needed. But outside from that, it should be brought up that a few ships created from Sorosuub does has immense power and capabilities for their size. The three that come to mind is the Liberator, Dauntless, and Bulwark
|
|
|
Post by Nicademus Delvardus IV on Nov 14, 2019 7:33:47 GMT -8
Alright, forgot to get around to this. But based on the voting, the answer is pretty obvious. Wookieepedia will remain our primary source in 99% of our endeavors, but we will still look to other resources when need be. In the mean time, the Liberator will get an adjustment based on its size and likely its armament.
|
|