Taung H'rel
Retired High Councilor 
Posts: 468 
Affiliation: Galactic Empire
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Post by Taung H'rel on Jul 15, 2023 15:57:36 GMT -8
I believe that the below are more accurate numbers for the ship.
This is based in Canon/Legend Former Canon official depictions, except for 1 which I will call out.
6x2 Heavy Medium or Heavy Turbolasers. (Note this is the one that is not official, though the arrangement makes sense along with the number of weapons roughly). Note the 3 pairs of heavy or medium turbolasers flanking the command tower.
10x2 forward dorsal Light Turbolaser Emplacements (nose flanks) 9 clusters of 6x2 Light Turbolaser Emplacements (on flanks) Watching the game footage over and over, there are as near as I can count, 10 independent weapon flash locations on the area near the nose, and 6 flashes of weapons fire in 9 different clusters along the flanks, 4 along the dorsal half center area, 3 along the ventral area, and 2 on the mid ship line aft of where the hull splits. Depictions and weapons traces show that all of these are dual turrets. Also the destruction of Taris, the still below and the footage, indicates that these are larger than laser cannons, though I dont believe that they are at the medium turbolaser level, which is why I believe they are light turbolasers.
32x1 Heavy Laser Cannons. This is based on the still of the Ebon Hawk being fired on, the weapons are clearly single barrel weapons. Another video shows single weapons point fire from along the brim trench in the dorsal and ventral sections, and I see no reason why the ship would have a weakness in the stern, and thus 16 laser cannons per side seems to leave a nice round defense shell. static.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/2/2b/Leviathan_Ebon_Hawk.png/revision/latest?cb=20130204121136These are not in dispute as I have no way of disputing them. 3 Tractor Beam Batteries 4 Gravity Well Projectors 48 Sith Starfighters 5,224 Crew 3,600 Troops 11,000 tons of cargo 3 years of consumables
Below is the Current Ship Numbers Agility (A): 2 Defensive (D): 2 Offensive (O): 2 Speed (S): 2 Special Gear: 3 (Troop Space, Hangar Space, Gravity Well Projectors) Total: 11
Suggested Change Below. Agility (A): 2
Defensive (D): 2
Offensive (O): 4
Speed (S): 2
Special Gear: 3 (Troop Space, Hangar Space, Gravity Well Projectors) Total: 13
Reasons being that while it doesnt have the size weaponry of a ship class up, for example the Harrower which clearly has larger and more numerous large weapons, the ship clearly can throw out a lot of firepower in the form of lots and lots of light weaponry. This may even be enough to bump the Offense to a 5, even if the Medium Turbolaser Turrets in the first picture are deemed non canon and excluded from the ships final form.
This is just a correction to a Legend ship,and not a ship of my own design using Legends material that anyone can reference.
Thank you Taung, Maker of Monsters
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Post by Nicademus Delvardus IV on Jul 15, 2023 21:41:05 GMT -8
Taung H'rel , I want to thank you for the conscious re-submission thread. First thing, the image "Firing on Ebon Hawk" is broken. Please fix it when you can! Now, onto the rest: Looking at these images, I do see what you mean by how this ship should have more weaponry on it and thus its stats be boosted. The damage to Taris would certainly not be done by laser turrets, but by turbolaser fire. After all, the devastation by Malak certainly set Taris back some centuries due to the firepower brought to bare by what the game shows to be a single ship. The close up images do help and I am glad you brought this to our attention. Thoughts, fellow Operators? Zion Morviael [RETIRED] and Jenia Kasalle How about you Whill Shaman Kahul ? You have worked with us before on submission discussions.
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Post by Zion Morviael [RETIRED] on Jul 15, 2023 22:55:46 GMT -8
So, having a look at the Leviathan's Databank Entry from the WaybackMachine, the listed armaments are: 20 quad laser cannons; 4 gravity well projectors; tractor beam; 2 ion cannons; 4 turbolasers. Which, based on information we have available, is what the standard Interdictor-Class Cruiser coming out of the Shipyards was equipped with. Wookieepedia even notes that the Leviathan was the only space worthy vessel ever produced of the line. Working from the Wookiee page, we find the Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide as a reference for the article. Skipping to page 162 of the Guide, we find that the Leviathan was fed to the Star Forge, which essentially created a "Star Forge Manufacture Interdictor-class Warship" with armaments as follows: 5 Medium Turbolaser Batteries; 6 Point-Defense Light Laser Batteries; 3 Tractor Beam Batteries; and 4 Gravity Well Projectors. In my mind, these two canon sources are pretty definitive in terms of what the number of armaments are. Further, what is more clear is that there exists the standard Interdictor-Class Cruiser and then a Star Forge Refit which does appear to have a heavier weapons load out than the standard fit. However, I don't necessarily foresee the Star Forge Refit hitting a 4 in the Offensive stat. A 3 would be a lot more closer in range for the loadout from the Campaign Guide. But a separate canon submission for the Refit would make sense. I think the Interdictor-Class Cruiser should be edited to clarify that its weaponry is based upon the Leviathan's loadout, given that was the intended based model for the class. I'm dubious of using art to backup claims of additional guns, just as artists tend to have some creative license in how they illustrate a piece and might incorrectly illustrate how a particular weapon should function, or choose the rule of cool for showing off devastation. |
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Taung H'rel
Retired High Councilor
Posts: 468
Affiliation: Galactic Empire
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Post by Taung H'rel on Jul 16, 2023 8:56:47 GMT -8
Book writers and published artists are not always the same. The in game cut scene video is where the vast majority of the light turbolasers are displayed.
I do agree that the location of the medium turbolasers in the fan art is likely adding to the ships weaponry, however I included it becuase it draws a clear line and placement distinction between medium and light turbolaser size for the ship. If these are included or excluded in the final decision is irrelevant to me personally. However source books many times have issues as the writers seldom do any kind of analysis to square entries with what is released in Canon media. Like the number of weapons or single or twin mount weapons. Which is obvious from the cut scenes.
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Post by Nicademus Delvardus IV on Aug 1, 2023 18:17:17 GMT -8
Let me try a compromise based on everything.
6 Light Turbolaser Turrets (based on main image in the OP)
22 Turboalser Cannons (based on the bombardment scene**) (eleven on each side)
10 Quad Laser Turrets (based off a compromise of the laser cannon variation)
30 Laser Cannons (based off a compromise of the laser cannon variation)
3 Tractor Beam Batteries
4 Gravity Well Projectors
** I feel that the image of the bombardment is meant for cinematic effect there given we see dual lances of laser bolts. Hence why I went with cannons, instead of turrets. Easily could be clustered together to make it seem like a turret, but are just singular emplacements meant for effective firepower within a clustered centering.
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Post by Zion Morviael [RETIRED] on Aug 1, 2023 20:23:23 GMT -8
I don't think a compromise is really necessary if I'm honest. We've got clear canon examples where the weaponry numbers are laid out along with canon sources confirming that two versions of the Interdictor-Class Cruiser existed, one with a lighter weaponry loadout and one with a heavier weaponry loadout. Edit the existing one to be more in line weapon count wise with the base model and then a Star Forge refit model can be submitted with the heavier weapons listed for it.
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Post by Nicademus Delvardus IV on Aug 1, 2023 20:47:41 GMT -8
I think the original submission does mention the heavier/Leviathan variant in terms of the weaponry. Viox was good at mentioning that.
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Taung H'rel
Retired High Councilor
Posts: 468
Affiliation: Galactic Empire
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Post by Taung H'rel on Aug 2, 2023 12:46:53 GMT -8
It is my position that going against a picture is a quick way to destroy all thought into relativistic nonsense. It's like saying an ISD may be pictured as a triangle, but someone wrote they really are very rounded and organic looking.
I would make the argument that visual evidence trumps written descriptions wherever possible. As long as it is an official source that at the time of its creation/display was given the official Star Wars approval. Movies, games, pictures, books, comics.
While I do not disagree that there is in fact different versions of a ship or technology or species in existence, trying to say that someone doesn't see what they see is stepping into madness.
2+2 is 4 no matter how many times someone wants to compromise and demand that it be 5.
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Post by Zion Morviael [RETIRED] on Aug 2, 2023 13:25:43 GMT -8
Yes, because Star Wars never had like 5 different levels of Canonicity with contradictions and retcons abounding for various ships and technology based on what level trumped what…
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Taung H'rel
Retired High Councilor
Posts: 468
Affiliation: Galactic Empire
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Post by Taung H'rel on Aug 2, 2023 14:07:41 GMT -8
Zion was actually a woman, despite the portrayal of his avatar. I have written it therefore it is true.
An ISD doesn't have four big turrets on either side of its superstructure, it really only has two on each side.
Don't say there are five lights.
I don't disagree that there are disagreements within canon, legends, lit, etc.
However if you say Tatooine was actually a lush jungle and flowing rivers and there was only 1 ISD that chased the Millenium Falcon away from Tatooine, you are going to get laughed at.
Saying 2 versions of a ship exists becuase both have been demonstrated is fine. Saying that one of them is not actually what is shown despite all evidence to the contrary is just lying.
Having a discussion about something not shown but is described or alluded to is one thing, trying to say someone looking at a duck with three green feathers and telling them it only has one green feather just says that you have no clue about what you are saying.
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Post by Zion Morviael [RETIRED] on Aug 2, 2023 14:31:37 GMT -8
So look, I think there may be some confusion about what I believe the weapon loadout is based on the stats that have been shown. To clarify, for the purposes of JvS, a Battery is considered 5 of any given emplacement. Which would read the Star Forges refit at: 25 Medium Turbolasers 30 Point-Defense Light Lasers 15 Tractor Beams 4 Gravity Well Projectors HOWEVER, after managing to track down a video of this cinematic: www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpN4wl74CuEI'm more inclined to note that the Medium Turbolasers are more likely to be histed as Dual Medium Turbolaser Turrets. Whilst the Point-Defence Lasers could still be single barrel and are potentially what was shooting at the Ebon Hawk. |
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Post by Zion Morviael [RETIRED] on Aug 2, 2023 14:41:33 GMT -8
That said, to be clear, I think we can all agree that the existing entry is more accurate of the Leviathan loadout (maybe nix the mention of the higher weapon count and replace with mention of the Star Forge refit version existing?), whilst a new submission for the Star Forge loadout with a heavier arsenal should be created.
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Taung H'rel
Retired High Councilor
Posts: 468
Affiliation: Galactic Empire
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Post by Taung H'rel on Aug 2, 2023 14:52:20 GMT -8
If you're arguing a change for the Star Forge version I can't contradict it. A higher load out is pro ably more accurate.
I thought you were looking at the specifically Leviathan version.
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Mike Frantz
Databank Operations
That Guy
Posts: 712
Affiliation: The Jedi Order
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Post by Mike Frantz on Aug 2, 2023 15:30:55 GMT -8
I am going to say a few things, but before I do just bear in mind that I've just ran into this thread today and though I read it all I might have missed something while reading it all as one giant block of text rather than as the posts appeared. Additionally my forte is not with ship of this era and so I might not be as well informed as I would be if we were talking about the Clone wars era or later.
Now with all those caveats out of the way I just wanted to recenter the discussion a little bit for my own clarity. If my understanding is correct these weapon numbers (and associated MAD stat offence increase) are based off of extrapolations of cutscene sequences in KOTOR (a game that for the record I've never played). The counter concern is based off of numbers given in a KOTOR roleplaying game campaign book guide and the numbers formerly listed on the official star wars site.
Assuming the information above is correct (and please feel free to tell me if it isn't, because I'm me and am not all knowing). It seems to come down to a matter of of what is most accurate, information based on well thought out conjecture or information that is canon sourced, but potentially problematic in other ways. Unfortunately neither of those directions are truly definitive, and thus it seems like we need to combine those ideas into some sort of compromise between the two.
Now before I start thinking super hard about exact numbers and doing math and making my brain hurt I want to see if you guys are all on board with that statement and if not then politely discuss why you disagree. Unfortunately because we are dealing with a giant franchise with a lot of cooks in the kitchen who don't always consult one another, at some point we have to make our own JvS judgement call and stand by that, but to do that we have to have a polite discussion about the pros and cons of every angle and not start with just "I'm right and you're wrong".
Thoughts? Feelings? Concerns? Good Taco recipes?- Everyone's least favorite Jedi, Mike.
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Post by Zion Morviael [RETIRED] on Aug 2, 2023 16:10:35 GMT -8
If you're arguing a change for the Star Forge version I can't contradict it. A higher load out is pro ably more accurate. I thought you were looking at the specifically Leviathan version. I guess to clarify, do you have an issue with the currently submitted Interdictor model's weaponry being: 20 quad laser cannons 4 gravity well projectors 1 tractor beam 2 ion cannons 4 turbolasers keeping in mind we would have a separate Star Forge refit submission need to be made which would have something similar to this: 25 Dual Medium Turbolasers 30 Point-Defense Light Lasers 15 Tractor Beams 4 Gravity Well Projectors Just trying to determine if maybe we're already resolved this? or if there is still concern that the weapon loadout for the regular Cruiser is not accurate? |
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Taung H'rel
Retired High Councilor
Posts: 468
Affiliation: Galactic Empire
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Post by Taung H'rel on Aug 2, 2023 16:31:28 GMT -8
*Takes Mike's glowstick for his collection before reciting geometry calculations and pie*
Originally my point was for the class produced by the Republic, as the Leviathan was mentioned as being the first. The evidence in the game shows that stats that someone came up with later was inaccurate and we have no idea what they were using for their numbers, but clearly not the released media.
The Star Forge refit is a different ship and aside from the visuals for those not making sense in media, having far less than a ship that size should, I have no argument to change the stats on it. Though my position would be that they should be bumped up and better clarified for rp purposes.
I never liked 5 barrels being a battery as there has never really been odd number barrel turrets in SW but that is a separate issue even though it has a bearing on a lot of discussion.
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Post by Zion Morviael [RETIRED] on Feb 10, 2024 16:44:55 GMT -8
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Post by Nicademus Delvardus IV on Feb 14, 2024 18:01:49 GMT -8
I am personally thinking we should keep with one in terms of entry. I feel that Leviathan was a specially designed flagship for the purpose of being able to what its commander felt was necessary being that this individual was Saul Karath. However, at the same time, I am inclined to do two entries namely because we have various refits of ISDs based on designs such as the Anakin Solo.
So let's go with two entries, a base entry one that was used by the general navy and then specially crafted Leviathan refit.
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