Taung H'rel
Retired High Councilor
Posts: 469
Affiliation: Galactic Empire
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Post by Taung H'rel on Aug 1, 2023 13:10:19 GMT -8
[Custom] Furrower class Star Frigate
Ship Class: Star Frigate Ship Role: Dreadnought Ship Length: 750m Agility (A): 3 Defensive (D): 3 Offensive (D): 4 Speed (S): 3 Special Gear: 2 (Advanced Targeting Sensors, Redundant Shield Generator) Weapons: 2 Prow Long Range Turbolasers 2 Prow Long Range Ion cannons 8 Twin heavy turbolasers 2 Twin Heavy Ion Cannon 12 Twin Medium Turbolasers 10 Quad Light Turbolasers 8 Twin Heavy Laser Cannons 2 Assault Proton Torpedo Launchers 1 Heavy frontal shield generator Description: The Furrower class Dreadnaught was manufactured with the express purpose of breaking heavily armed and armored targets, being able to break planetary sieges or hammer defensive fleets and shields from afar. As such the design team, being inspired by the Munificent design, went with extra reactors and a smaller number of a wide range of weapons to deal with small amounts of threats within each threat realm. Due to the specific role of the ship the vessel omits a starfighter compliment and relies on other fleet elements to carry fighters if needed for a mission. Likewise the troop compliment is limited to troops specialized in defending against boarding parties. The ship has limited armor, leaving some areas open and defending the areas with redundant heavy shield generators in order to save what weight can be saved. Never seen during the war and restrictions meant that many of the ships were sold Mercenary groups in order to recoup the cost of design and the limited run of manufacture before word of warship restrictions reached the shipyard owners. Nevertheless the ship design persisted by those who had the need of their special abilities.
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Post by Nicademus Delvardus IV on Aug 1, 2023 14:35:27 GMT -8
Any sort of canon submissions do need the link to their articles from Wookieepedia hyperlinked in the title.
Edit: is this a canon vessel? I can’t seem to find it anywhere on Wookieepedia.
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Taung H'rel
Retired High Councilor
Posts: 469
Affiliation: Galactic Empire
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Post by Taung H'rel on Aug 1, 2023 15:10:50 GMT -8
It is in an official comic, now legends, but it was never named or further described. starwars.fandom.com/wiki/NomadPeople on Wookie are generally idiots as I will note they have a ship listed as an Acclamator class appearing in the comic when the ships are clearly not despite sharing a handful of features common to many ships of that era, namely the hyperdri e tail section. Looking at overall ship characteristics it is has far more design similarities to a Harrower, made by Taereb.
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Post by Nicademus Delvardus IV on Aug 1, 2023 15:53:18 GMT -8
I may have to recommend this be a custom entry for a key reason: Taereb as a company wasn’t introduced till 2011 and after when SWTOR was made. This comic came out 7 years prior. Hard to link a vessel with so little information beyond an appearance to a canon company that made ships for the Sith Empire and then vanished along with it after.
Another detail I want to mention is that we have had discussions before with long range weaponry. Only turbolasers seem to be it, nothing yet with ion cannons. I do know that there is a ground vessel that uses one but we have made decisions that what is used on ground vehicles doesn’t mean it can be used on vessels. Given its size, I do not think this vessel has the power necessary to utilize them. The Anakin Solo, an ISD II size, had two of these. The Megador which may have at 8,000 meters had a trio of them.
It even states in the article:
Given this, I do not think a 750 star frigate has the means to power them and everything else on it.
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Taung H'rel
Retired High Councilor
Posts: 469
Affiliation: Galactic Empire
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Post by Taung H'rel on Aug 1, 2023 16:19:31 GMT -8
Retconning of course has never happened...
Just as immediate examples as the Yuuzhan Vong werent created until decades after these comics were released.
I will switch it to Custom if you insist, but it is taking a ship that was displayed in universe and I have done what I can to remain true to the evidence that was presented.
Note the wording in the Data Box
The Munificent's two reactors are smaller and weaker even combined than a Venators reactor. A Venators reactor is smaller and weaker than an ISD I reactor which is weaker than an ISDII reactor by 20%. Yet it powered it. I believe it is a question of power distribution and rate of fire question.
An example is the SPHA-T, It has lots of firepower and its own reactor, but still had to pull off the battlefield and recharge...which makes no sense for a walking reactor...unless it built up its charges in capacitors, then drained the capacitors, using the reactor to charge them back up over time.
However the Munificent is an example of a ship that had listed Long Range Heavy Ion Cannons in publication and print officially, long before the Anakin Solo was ever listed as a ship in the books.
I will point out that in the Battle of Borleias during hte Yuuzhan Vong War it is written that a turbolaser beam struck the worldship in orbit, with the power of a turbolaser, and that its origin point was outside of the solar system. If thats not long range, i don't know what is. I will point out that the if the Anakin Solo was firing at the rate we see the ISD I turrets firing in Rogue One, then yes that would draw a horrendous amount of power all at once to keep up long range fire. Doing charged volleys over time however is not. This again was written before the book where the Anakin Solo made its appearance, both in print and SW timeline.
As for shipyards appearing or disappearing, they were never listed as being destroyed, abandoned, nor captured. All of those engineers and expertise rarely simply vanishes, an example being that a nice little retcon of Palpatine having designs from the Harrower, which is why the wedge shape of the Star Destroyers. The point being it could be and my reasons have been alluded to above.
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Post by Nicademus Delvardus IV on Aug 1, 2023 16:54:50 GMT -8
After some discussion, if you wish to use the current weaponry and design history it would be better as a custom design. However, to continue developing it as a Canon entry... I will break this down as best I can per section: Long Range Heavy Ion Canons: thanks for showing the evidence there. Those are approved then for usage and should not have any further issues. Shipyards: there is some issue with the lore nonetheless. Taereb seems to have no history beyond the Sith Empire of the Great Galactic War era. Seeing as this a canon entry, this history is not correct. It is customized to make the vessel believable in why it was made and why it was shaped so. I do not think this is a good idea for history to be made up to such a degree given that it is being based off of a canon mention. It can be stated that it was made at such and such time, probably by an independent shipwright in the Outer Rim, utilized by X, for what could be the estimated purpose, and then mention its armaments. Which leads to another discussion... Armament: the comic takes place in 32 BBY, a decade before the Clone Wars. It is noted that the Acclamator was being tested as early as the same year, so this could be a design that precursors the true Acclamator, just as there is a Venator-styled Mandalorian Cruiser during the Neo-Crusader era. This ship could have even been made in the years prior to that, likely in the decade or so, putting it in the 40s and 50s BBY. Given that this would still be in the Ruusan Reformation restrictions, indicates how hard Ranulph had to push to get the Republic Outland Regions Security Force to be approved, these vessels armaments may not be as strong as they are listed in the entry. For one, prototypes of the long-range turbolasers weren't in service till the Second Galactic Civil War, a century later. This vessel certainly wouldn't have them. Turbolasers were likely light and few while laser cannons and ion cannons may have had a strong presence in order to combat pirates at best and police the systems they were assigned to. Missile launchers were probably rare too. We have to consider that as a canon entry, given its date and time, we have to make the entry's armament match what we know of the era, considering it is Pre-Clone Wars and biggest conflict that happened in recent memory was... the Stark Hyperspace War in 44 BBY and in the same year of 32 BBY, the Invasion of Naboo. This vessel, given that it appears to be some sort of Acclamator predecessor in design, may not have been as armed as we think, considering the timeline of events leading up to the military explosion of technology of the Clone Wars. And with that in mind, that is how we will shape this entry.
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Taung H'rel
Retired High Councilor
Posts: 469
Affiliation: Galactic Empire
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Post by Taung H'rel on Aug 1, 2023 17:37:37 GMT -8
Fair, I did not catch the year when I glanced through stuff. Looking at the designs of the ships and the armor I assumed it was after the Civil War began.
It sounds like I will be shifting it to a custom ship then as being an updated version of an older design, removing the shipyards.
What of the mention of the attack on the worldship by a long range turbolaser near a decade before the Anakin Solo was built? Both in timeliness and publication.
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Post by Nicademus Delvardus IV on Aug 1, 2023 18:02:33 GMT -8
So the mention of the long range turbolaser is between the dates of 27 ABY (the Battle of Borleias) and 40 ABY (when the Anakin Solo was crafted).
Oh! I found the confirmation we needed! It wasn't a true long-range turbolaser like what the Anakin Solo had. The project mentions this: So not what we know of later, which were the prototypes first installed at the beginning of the Second Galactic Civil War, nearly two decades later. It seemed the intention was to deceive the Yuuzhan Vong as Lah thought it was a new superweapon, not some trick that the New Republic made up. The project had an intended effect of putting the YZ on a small defense as they dedicated resources to countering super weapons rather than advancing.
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Taung H'rel
Retired High Councilor
Posts: 469
Affiliation: Galactic Empire
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Post by Taung H'rel on Aug 1, 2023 19:26:49 GMT -8
Battle of Borleias in the Yuuzhan Vong war was 27 ABY. I think you're drawing some incorrect conclusions about that event. Conclusion 1 which is incorrect...is that they actually fired a turbolaser beam between starsystems hundreds of light years apart....there is your long range turbolaser. Or The beam is still somewhere in deep space trucking along, and the beam was actually fired from a ship in the Coruscant system from beyond detection range yet with enough precision and firepower to deliver a turbolaser beam, sustained I will add, to the worldship in orbit. Either way is a long range turbolaser, but as the Pipefighters were a deliberate fake, I am going to feel safe leaning on the conclusion that says they could not fire a turbolaser beam through interstellar space. Which just leaves the ability to fire a turbolaser bolt from just outside the Coruscant system from a ship in the Coruscant system. A long range turbolaser some 35 years before the Anakin Solo in 40 something BBY. Battle of BorleiasFinal paragraph of section "Arrival Czulkang Lah"
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Post by Nicademus Delvardus IV on Aug 1, 2023 19:55:02 GMT -8
I think there is just some misunderstandings from the whole ordeal since it mentions that long-range turbolasers are confirmed to be prototypes by the Second Galactic Civil War era. And the stating in the article about the Long-range Turbolasers that it was "technology was developed by the Galactic Alliance during the Second Galactic Civil War." These specific statements confirm that it was a latter development, not something done during the Yuuzhan Vong War. Considering the evidence of both the project and the facts of long-range turbolasers, I do not think this was an actual weapon used at the Battle of Borleias is the same or rather miswritten as such in comparison to the ones mounted in the Anakin Solo prior to 40 ABY. In terms of this long-range weapon used at the Battle of Borleias, we see no further confirmation of what ship or how this technology was already present/developed given that the actual weapon isn't developed till decades later. In the article for the weapon itself, it doesn't mention testing or that a prototype was fired during the YV War. I also believe that since it mentions that the firing was a turbolaser burst makes me wonder if it was something that they did specifically like... overloading the power for the specific emplacement or doing adjustments that allowed the warship to hit Lah's worldship. And probably, in doing so, made it a long-ranged attack.
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Taung H'rel
Retired High Councilor
Posts: 469
Affiliation: Galactic Empire
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Post by Taung H'rel on Aug 1, 2023 20:30:11 GMT -8
So how do you reconcile the part where a ship was able to fire a turbolaser beam for several sustained seconds far outside the sensor range of a planet that was bristling with sensors...a considerable portion of the Vong fleet, certainly hundreds if not still thousands of ships, and strike a specific target, but then not be considered a long range turbolaser?
Articles are not the end all, they are drawn from the source material. I could write or add to the entry to say that the one on the Anakin Solo was simply able to fire faster but used far more power. Then it would be in the article and my statement would be technically true. I don't do Wookiepedia articles but have seen glaring inconsistency. One of the glaring ones is that low orbit is 2000 km in altitude. If this were strictly true then the atmospheric range of 75 km or even 150 km space range of turbolasers mean that a Base Delta Zero is physically impossible to do with turbolasers. Yet Base Delta Zero has supposedly happened.
Despite what the authors wrote later on. Yes I understand that writers mess up. Perhaps the long range turbolaser merely increases the velocity of the bolt cutting enemy maneuver time. Bolt flight time, like bullet flight time, does increase the chances of a miss. For lack of a better comparison a faster bullet has less drop, thus increasing its point blank range. Point blank being the range that a shot can be fired before the drop of the bullet, or motion of the target must be compensated for. For turbolasers and other energy weapons we can mostly dispense with the drop aspect and simply deal with the targets motion as the point blank issue. This would increase the likelihood of hits significantly creating an effective long range turbolaser.
From the article.
Longer effective range is what I am homing in on in that passage.
It would be similar to saying that the Scimitar was the first ship to have a cloaking device, yet Captain Needa had heard of them and they were in enough use to actually be an immediate possibility, even if a fantastical one for "No ship that small has a cloaking device." Or to ignore the other examples of cloaking fields in the distant past, even personal ones, thousands of years before the Battle of Yavin.
But regardless if I make it a Custom ship then I don't have to worry about timeline, and the fact that there are a large number of frigate sized vessels that have a lot more heavy weaponry sitting on their hulls, or I have points to play with to make it happen.
In addition the Hapans mounted them on their Battle Dragons which are rather...ummm...short...compared to an ISD, with a far smaller reactor.
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Post by Nicademus Delvardus IV on Aug 1, 2023 20:41:58 GMT -8
Hapan Battle Dragons also don't fire as quickly as ISD vessels. Their weapons are slow to recharge and thus they have that the disc that allows for weapons to be rotated, allowing for a more efficient use of firepower. These vessels likely had one on them and they were but a handful. There was probably also weapon compensations in which weaponry was removed in order to better power the long-range variant. Of course, we don't know seeing as we have no examples beyond it being said that some were armed.
Of course though, I will remark back that if this was a sustained turbolaser beam (several seconds in length of time), I don't believe long-range variants do that. They have the longer-range, but still fire as any other turbolaser would. I believe that it was likely something special done to be able to create a turbolaser burst that had a longer range than other weapons at the time, allowing for a precise hit and sustained damage over a period of time. But we will never know that this point if what was used at the Battle of Borleias was that or the beginnings of what become long-range turbolasers. We do mostly utilize Wookieepedia articles given they are easier to access and read for the majority of the community. But of course, if there are disputes, as we did have one over the Liberator-class before, that require more detail, we do try to dive where we can to figure out details and specifics. Wookieepedia is the favored source considering it's ease of access, but that doesn't mean we won't dive deeper when need be.
As the article says that it was a technology developed by the Galactic Alliance at the time of the Second Galactic Civil War, then it is that in terms of those facts. As for what happened at Borleais, we can certainly go either way as their effective arguments for either side. At the end of the day though, we cannot know now with Legends over. A lot of things we now cannot know considering that fact.
Shall we discuss more about your submission since it is changing from canon to custom? Are there any changes you plan to do beyond making it the upgrade from the original piece?
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Taung H'rel
Retired High Councilor
Posts: 469
Affiliation: Galactic Empire
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Post by Taung H'rel on Aug 1, 2023 20:52:45 GMT -8
Edited submission. The Hapans was actually because of old tech. They were given quick charging turbolasers like the rest of the galaxy so they could stay in the fight. No mention of upgrading power cores.
Does seem a bit strange that they wouldnt have been upgrading after they captured an ISD though. They did have nearly a dozen of the things that were presented as gifts to Leia in The Courtship of Princess Leia. Oh silly authors and their missing of details for us true nerds to worry about.
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Post by Nicademus Delvardus IV on Aug 1, 2023 20:57:19 GMT -8
Don't need the point for long-ranged weapons. Seeing as we have not had that in other submissions using the long-range turbos. My own submission, here, doesn't have those as points. My only concern then is still the present of two long-ranges for a ship this size. Since even one on an ISD has a noticeable effect on power usage which makes me believe the Hapan Battle Dragons likely only used one with weapon adjustments to ensure there was enough power. Might be best to do one to keep the current weapon set up, while two may require an adjustment to your present set of armaments.
If you think about it, Hapans never needed to upgrade considering they kept their independence well preserved till the YV War happened and things came crashing all over the place. Then with how the GA was the paramount power and leader with technology, gotta keep up with the neighbors. Especially if you plan to join this new faction called the Confederation.
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Post by Zion Morviael [RETIRED] on Aug 1, 2023 20:58:23 GMT -8
Yeah look, at this point I think a discussion on when Long Range Turbolasers were around and in use is a little pointless since you're going the Custom Submission Route. My only comment is that Hapan Battle Dragon's do not use Long-Range Turbolasers, which are different from regular Turbolasers which I don't think any issue has been brought up about.
The issue and concern is where evidence of such powerful weapons has been found in canon before. After prior discussion and where fairness is concerned, it was determined Star Frigates could manage 1 Long Range Turbolaser. Arguably at the end of the day, you can set your ships offensive stat to a 4 or 5 really regardless of gun count, because it's an indication of that vessels strength. We'll typically work with gun count numbers because they're a pretty simple way for giving a good idea of strength. However, you are welcome to describe away a method by which a smaller weapon loadout would be stronger than a similar ship with more guns.
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Taung H'rel
Retired High Councilor
Posts: 469
Affiliation: Galactic Empire
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Post by Taung H'rel on Aug 1, 2023 21:25:14 GMT -8
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Taung H'rel
Retired High Councilor
Posts: 469
Affiliation: Galactic Empire
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Post by Taung H'rel on Aug 1, 2023 21:27:49 GMT -8
Wouldnt let me edit outside of the quote.
Here is evidence that they can be mounted, and by the wording multiple (at least in barrel count) of them being mounted on cruiser sized vessels.
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Post by Zion Morviael [RETIRED] on Aug 2, 2023 14:55:07 GMT -8
I'd argue the context of the quote is not necessarily that multiple Prototype long-range turbolasers were mounted on each Hapan Battle Dragon, rather several Battle Dragons were part of the program that included having a Prototype long-range turbolaser mounted on them. Also no real specific context about whether these Hapan Battle Dragons still included their full weapon weapon loadout or not.
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Taung H'rel
Retired High Councilor
Posts: 469
Affiliation: Galactic Empire
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Post by Taung H'rel on Aug 2, 2023 15:22:34 GMT -8
Thank goodness for lack of specificity.
No I don't think they loaded them up. I would even wager that at most there were only 2 twin turrets, and more likely only 1 twin as it was a prototype. It was likely not much more than an advanced prototype that was put on the Anakin Solo.
My reasoning behind that line of thought is that what navy wouldn't start tossing them on every ship they could. The Imperial Remnant with the Megador and the Galactic Alliance with only the A.S. seems like poor planning. Especially as the Confederacy was able to manufacture enough to put on several ships, enough to give pause to an entire fleet in its advance.
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Post by Zion Morviael [RETIRED] on Aug 2, 2023 15:50:01 GMT -8
To be fair, the CIS was tossing only a pair of the Long Range Ion Cannons on some of their larger ships, which makes sense since they were pretty advanced in terms of Ion Weaponry development, given all the Ion Cannons they developed over the course of the Clone Wars. And honestly, I don't think we necessarily have an issue with those being dual emplacements.
It's more the Long Range Turbolasers we're a little hesitant about having in pairs on a ship this size. By the same logic that the CIS was advanced enough in their understanding of Ion Weaponry they could pretty freely toss around long range ion cannons in pairs on their warships. It's equally likely that the Imperials and the Alliance were advanced enough to begin developing Long Range Turbolasers out to a point they could deploy them in limited quantities but not stacking them on every ship.
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