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Post by Zion Morviael [RETIRED] on Jun 26, 2018 5:03:04 GMT -8
Good Morning/Afternoon/Evening/Twilight,
I'm not going to come out of the gate with the mentality or message that I have any or all of the answers to this particular topic. I have some vague ideas of my own and I do intend to put them forth later. But for the time being, I wanted to get this discussion started for the public.
Basically, alongside the database, which we are hoping will allow us to expand on and fill out vague details on ships and vehicles. We are looking at some sort of system to introduce custom tech back to JvS. At this stage, it could just be ships, but if we can manage to scrap together something we can all comfortably agree with that won't be outright abused like the Patent Office, we could expand its scope to vehicles, etc.
Any and all ideas are welcome. Whether it's for how we might balance it out, what a submission might look like, etc. Maybe you have an idea for the system you want to put out there. Just remember: even though someone suggests something, does not mean it is set in stone.
Let the discussion begin...
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Post by The Admiralty OOC on Jun 26, 2018 10:11:55 GMT -8
I greatly support this idea. However, my ideals are probably fairly biased by the old standards of the PO. I will likely remain quiet for this conversation. ... Maybe.
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Mike Frantz
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That Guy
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Affiliation: The Jedi Order
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Post by Mike Frantz on Jun 26, 2018 11:11:37 GMT -8
Even a bias opinion can add valuable insight. The more voices we have saying valuable things, the more likely we are to get the best system possible. I shall add my own thoughts in as time allows
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Post by The Admiralty OOC on Jun 26, 2018 14:38:55 GMT -8
Ok, then.
As somewhat stated by me before, I support a multi-path approach.
This simple version for people to use would be the "this is what it looks like, but treat it like [X canon ship]".
The more complex version would be a scale system. Though it would still be more simple than the old point system of the PO. Basically, you get three categories: Attack, Defense & Speed. Each categories has three possible ranks (well, technically four): Low, Average, & High. You get 6 points to divide up how you want.
Speed & Defense are set, you don't have to worry about that. That reduces all ships to one of three possible speeds (useful in dogfights, or in knowing if you can catch the ship running away from you) & one of three possible levels of defense. Of course, a scale would have to be set up to show how speeds & defenses relate across ship types (Simple quick idea I had while typing this, for every step larger in size, the speed is one lower. So an 'Average' freighter would be the same speed as a 'Slow' fighter. Defense would work the same, but in the other direction). The only complex bit would be weapons. I'm not sure, just yet, how weapons would work. Perhaps each point in weapons is another weapon system? Or extra power to one?
Example 1: My starfighter X is Average Attack, Average Defense & Average Speed. So however I want to fluff out the defenses & the speed, everyone already knows how the ship stacks up mechanically with any other particular ship (more or less this would be the X-Wing). I'd go into detail about the weapon load.
Example 2: My starfighter Y is Average Attack, Low Defense & High Speed. In this case, I'm trading some of the defensive power to make the ship faster (think A-wing for this one). Again, people know more or less how the ship stands at a simple glance.
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Post by Zion Morviael [RETIRED] on Jun 26, 2018 19:16:59 GMT -8
^ basically how I was thinking things would work best.
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Post by The Admiralty OOC on Jun 27, 2018 6:47:53 GMT -8
Anyone wondering what that technical fourth ranking is? Nothing. Basically you don't put any points into that category. No Speed would be a satellite/station. No defense would be an eggshell that your could break with a hammer. No attack would be a recon or unarmed scout.
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Stevan Stormro
Kumauri Industries
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Post by Stevan Stormro on Jun 27, 2018 10:41:25 GMT -8
My only concern with that system as presented is that I feel like it lacks the granularity to properly represent all of the canon options that currently exist. It also doesn't have any way to differentiate speed and maneuverability. For example how would one represent a K-Wing with that system? The ship is incredibly heavily armed for a starfighter, is tough, and can go surprisingly fast in bursts thanks to its SLAM-like systems while not being terribly maneuverable. What about a TIE Defender, a ship with heavy firepower, decent durability, and high speed and maneuverability. While I like the idea of having a point based scale for all of those aspects to provide consistency across ships and a clear point of reference for their capabilities I worry that locking all ships into the same total amount of points will make the system unable to represent many exisiting ships and I feel like any system that the site settles on to handle such things should be able to properly model anything canon.
Perhaps there could be different classes for each type of ship, with varying point totals for each one. I also wonder how factors such as cost will be factored in. Perhaps have a default cost for each class and then points can be spent to lower that cost, which will serve as a way to spend points that aren't needed to get a ship's capabilities where the creator wants them. For example, let's say someone designs a ship in the same class as the K-Wing, a class with a base cost per fighter of 50k just to grab a random number, but designs it as an incredibly fast and nimble dogfighter without much durability and only average weapons. After buying the stats that they want, there are points left over that could then be spent to lower the cost of the fighter down to say 35k or something like that, so that unused points aren't wasted and can be used for some other purpose. Extra points could also be used to buy special technology or upgrades such as cloaking devices, stealth systems, astromech droid sockets, enhanced sensors, integrated hyperdrives for fighters, ect. In the example above maybe the creator could spend some of their spare points to give the fighter an astromech droid socket and enhanced targeting sensors.
Those are my immediate thoughts on this idea. I love the idea of a point buy system to standardize everything and provide a solid point of reference, but I think it could use more granularity. Of course, I'm the fellow who is a loyal GURPS fan, so it's hardly surprising that I want more granularity. xD
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Post by The Admiralty OOC on Jun 27, 2018 10:52:34 GMT -8
For one, this would only be for custom tech. There are always going to be Canon ships with better stat spreads, but they had most of the galaxy's resource to play with & even then, most of the ships followed the spread.
My overall goal with the system is to keep it so simple that anyone can use or at least understand it at a glance. The problem is that introducing a cost system is that we lack an economy system in place, making that a rather pointless metric of comparison. An idea I had (admittedly before reading your post) was that if it is deemed simple enough, either the number of categories (tactical equipment, hanger space, maybe break defense down into hulls & shields, etc) or the scale count could be increased (from a three speed: low-med-high to a five speed: very low-low-med-high-very high).
We could also make it clear that not every point has to be spent, but my time spent in the PO, RPing on tabletops & RPing online tells me so few people will make use of that (without a solid incentive to do so, which we lack at the moment) it is near pointless to build rules around it.
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Stevan Stormro
Kumauri Industries
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Post by Stevan Stormro on Jun 27, 2018 11:07:51 GMT -8
I understand that it's for custom tech; I just feel that the system should be able to replicate the canon ships that its creations will exist alongside of if we're going to use it. The custom ships should at least be able to stand on equal footing with the canon ships; I don't want to see canon ships obsolesced by custom fanon ships, but at the same time there is no reason why the canon options should be inherently better than the custom ships either.
I do agree that cost is somewhat irrelevant in the current environment of JvS, but spare points could still be used to by specific stuff such as droid sockets and such. I do like the idea of splitting shields and hull into separate categories though, as well as the five point scale instead of just three. As for your concerns about simplicity, I can understand the desire for the system to be approachable for everyone but if it can't provide creators with the tools to create their visions what is the point of the system? Perhaps there could be a lite version that is simpler for those who don't desire to go down the rabbit hole with a fuller version for those who want to push the granularity and complexity such as us, similar to how the fleet regulations have a simple and a complex version? I just worry about us creating a system where custom ships A, B, C, and D are all mechanically identical with only visual fluff to differentiate them, similar to how simpler D20 based class systems such as D&D 3.5 resulted in Joe Fighter and Bob Fighter being more or less identical in terms of capability and mechanics.
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Post by The Admiralty OOC on Jun 27, 2018 13:02:05 GMT -8
After a fairly long talk in chat, Mike, Myself & Stormro came up with the following compromise system.
MAD ship system
Category Levels:
Very Low (1)
Low (2)
Average (3)
High (4)
Very High (5)
Category Types
Agility (A)
Defensive (D)
Offensive (O)
Speed (S)
Special Gear: Most gear is one point, some special examples may be deemed as two points (such as cloaking*)
At least one point must be spent in each category (except special gear, which can be zero). Each step increase in abilities costs one (1) point, however cost for a fifth level ability costs two (2) points. This is to limit the extreme upper levels of performance & to reflect the cost in reaching those levels with a design. A 'light' fighter has 10 points to use, while a 'heavy' fighter has 15 (Please note that these names do not indicate total bulk, only combat ability). For any other ship class you have 15 points to use.
Example: heavy fighter X-wing. 14 points: 3A, 3D, 3O, 3S, 2 points of gear (hyperdrive, mech slot).
Example: light lighter TIE fighter. 10 Points: 4A, 1D, 1O, 4S, no gear.
Example: Star Destroyer ISD. 14 Points: 2A, 4D, 4O, 2S, 2 points worth of gear (Hanger space & troop space).
* Stealth systems that aren't cloaking are only a single point. True cloaking systems cost 2 points, regardless of size. However, on ships of Cruiser size (400m) or larger, only double-bind cloaking systems can be use.
How Category Levels interact across size ranges.
For Speed & Agility, each step up in size decreases the total effect of the rank. For Offensive & Defense each step up in size increases the effect by one rank. This is because as you rise in size, your ability to move decreases, but the power you bring with you increases.
Example: Fighter vs Support A fighter has a speed & offense of 3. The Support also has a speed & Offense of 3. However, as the support is one step higher on the size scale than a fighter, its comparative offense is 4, while its comparative speed is 2.
We also had a rather fun idea about a simple combat system that would take into account these stats in a simple and interesting way, but that is on hold for the moment. Anyone interested in the details of the discussion can go on chat & search for the keyword "Freckle poodle combat". Note, it is about 300 posts, so be prepared.
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Post by Nicademus Delvardus IV on Jun 27, 2018 16:46:51 GMT -8
Excellent work on draft system!
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Non-Com Or'dinii
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Post by Non-Com Or'dinii on Jun 27, 2018 20:41:50 GMT -8
Maybe we should hire Mike, Stormo and TA... >.>
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Post by Zion Morviael [RETIRED] on Jun 28, 2018 18:56:14 GMT -8
I love where this discussion has been going and the idea forming. To be honest, having a quantifiable fleet combat mechanic might bring more people back to doing it more often.
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Non-Com Or'dinii
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Post by Non-Com Or'dinii on Jun 28, 2018 20:08:06 GMT -8
It would at the least make such things less of a headache.
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Post by Zion Morviael [RETIRED] on Jul 2, 2018 18:01:07 GMT -8
So how is the MAD system going?
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Mike Frantz
Member
That Guy
Posts: 721
Affiliation: The Jedi Order
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Post by Mike Frantz on Jul 2, 2018 20:31:47 GMT -8
We are on a brief hiatus for special family time (and so my head doesn’t explode with math and stuff), but we’re pretty close to a test build of the system.
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Post by The Admiralty OOC on Jul 3, 2018 18:21:51 GMT -8
Play testing for polish & resolving how some functions should work will begin after I return from home time. Additionally help for matches may be required.
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Non-Com Or'dinii
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Post by Non-Com Or'dinii on Jul 5, 2018 9:45:27 GMT -8
You know how to reach me, I'm always happy to help.
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Post by Zion Morviael [RETIRED] on Jul 10, 2018 17:08:18 GMT -8
So, it seems like we have a system for balancing how the system works. That covers one part of what we need.
Another part is how we want submissions to look. How we want to handle approvals.
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Post by Zion Morviael [RETIRED] on Jul 11, 2018 4:57:13 GMT -8
As far as layout for submissions go, here is one idea we are looking at that might be of interest:
Credit to Admy for the stat block inspiration. Now, obviously there is still some room for improvement, but just something to get people thinking. Also, this was just me taking a stab at the MAD system.
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![Zion Morviael [RETIRED] Avatar](https://i.imgur.com/WbGOLQP.jpg)
