Viox Savage
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Post by Viox Savage on Jan 10, 2019 8:30:18 GMT -8
So, it has been brought to my attention a few times lately, when it comes to starfighter complements of ships. So I bring the discussion to you, the community.
I am looking for feedback from all of you on ways to improve how it works as well as suggestions on how to make it better. As it sits right now, the popular trend seems to be simply ignoring starfighters as counting towards a player's fleet limit. Which is fine, so long as people are very clear that they will not be included in an RP unless agreed upon. I happen to have a note of that nature posted under all of my fighter complements on my profile.
The biggest area I wanted to cover was this:
An Imperial I-Class Star Destroyer can hold 72 standard TIE/LN Starfighters. But what if someone doesn't want to use TIE? Given the size of a TIE, at 6.3 meters in length, I was thinking along the lines that any other starfighter within the 5 to 7 meter range would allow a person to still maintain that 70-72 starfighter complement.
Anything larger then that though, a player would start losing the amount of fighters capable of realistically being carried. Any thing smaller could increase the capacity of starfighters capable of being carried.
Now I realize that this has the potential to be abused. That said, I believe this community is mature enough to help find a reasonable solution that can be accepted by the community, the RPA's and finally the Whills.
I will now open the floor to input! Let's hear what you've got to say.
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Jenia Kasalle
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Post by Jenia Kasalle on Jan 10, 2019 8:54:34 GMT -8
Main problem I see here is that numbers can be quite inconsistent as sources only list up the compliment of certain starfighter classes, not necessarily accounting other types of Star fighters. It isn't necessarily a problem on regular ships, which tend to feature 24-72 fighters in compliment regulary, but it becomes more of a problem, when we talk about carriers like for example the Venator class or partially even more problematic the Lucrehulk-class ships.
As for the Lucrehulk though this problem somewhat solves itself, when you account the fact, that the starfighters it carries are mostly droids, which doesn't mean anything other than they throw a lot of fragile spaceships into combat. The normal loadout of a Lucrehulk battleship is 1,500 Droid star fighters. Given that we have a canonical example, namely the Fortressa, who featured in rebell service a maximum of 500 X-Wings, I assume that we list these specifications within the ship database up as well in order to give a rough reference of what for example a human compliment would be. Though I wouldn't want to argue that vice-versa any non-Separatist ship would automatically be able to feature the standart starfighter loadout x 3 as that might lead to abuses.
Furthermore another problem is that some ships are massproduced in a way, that they will most likely work solely with certain capital ship types. The TIE line specifically is always hanging within hangars except for some ship types to name one famous example. I guess nobody really minds it, if someone lands a TIE just the way we see it for example in the old Battlefront II- Star Wars game, as probably many Legends and Canon sources did this regulary - yet I'm not sure if we want to judge starfighters that strictly, because some are 1 or 2 meters longer than the standart compliment.
So in the end I would rout for leaving the system as it is, as we can always judge abuses during ongoing RPs, consult players how to solve it better, while we eventually list up those issues within the database (as in example with the Separatist capital ships how many droids can be replaced with humans for maximum in order to keep stuff balanced). I would however suggest that we might specify rules for custom ships, which function as carriers of how many starfighters they are allowed to feature, so that people get a rough idea of what is a common starfighter loadout for ships of specific star ship classes and what aren't (as I would assume that both the Lucrehulk and the Venator are exceptions to the rule).
This would be my suggestion.
edit: also a brief note: If we talk about starfighter loadouts getting regulated, we especially need to talk about shuttle space as well. Because most times it is stated that a ship carries 'various shuttles' along with a star fighter complement, but doesn't state exactly how many it can feature for a maximum. Thus being problematic if you have a ship, which features Lambda-shuttles for example, but you want to replace some of them with larger or smaller shuttles.
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Mike Frantz
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Post by Mike Frantz on Jan 10, 2019 10:15:33 GMT -8
So I think we might be overthinking things just a little bit here. With the example of the Imperial SD we do have multiple sources of the NR having similar compliments in them once they've captured and used them. If we start looking to in depth about the size of fighter vs what can be carried I think we over complicate the system some. However I agree that this can come into play with the Venator and Lucrehulk (as well as some other types) that have a much higher compliment than is generally seen in that size. A pretty simple way to address that would be to put a cap on the maximum compliment each size class could hold.
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Post by The Admiralty OOC on Jan 10, 2019 13:43:03 GMT -8
Ok, I would like to bring up two points.
First, the Fortressa was destroyed in the process of launching fighters. Before it was destroyed, 500 x-wings had managed to launch, thus setting the minimum limit the class could carry. However, the reactions indicated that many fighters were still on board & lost in the destruction. This gives me the impression that the number of fighters still on board was considerable enough to be counted separately from the crew of the carrier. That or there was a bias on the part of the starfighter pilots to prioritize the loss of fellow starfighter pilots.
Second, while the ISD has been shown to usually hold 72 TIEs in special racks, several sources allude that more fighters could have been loaded, provided a more available fighters. This is not counting the fact that ISDs are regularly shown to capture ships up to 200 meters & park them in their hangers in addition to their fighter groups. I would suggest that any TIE specific carrier would simply need minor modifications to alter the landing racks to hold most types of fighters (though ships like the ARC170 would probably give the system some serious trouble).
Those points being covered, my stance is usually to count fighters as part of the fleet numbers. This does, at times, make things difficult as it requires choosing between having a loaded carrier or a few warships. I feel it provides a better balance than being able to assume you have free fighters with an carrier.
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Luxeria
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Post by Luxeria on Jan 11, 2019 11:51:18 GMT -8
I know that for some, the idea of fighters being part of the point system or not is a make or break deal. And really, you are given basically two options: one or two ships with fighters, or an actual fleet. And if I had to choose, I'd drop the starfighters completely because they become more of a hassle to deal with and write. I believe this was one of the biggest issues I faced when deciding to try and take up a fleet for the first time. If not for the fact it was said that most consider fighters not part of the system, I would have just said heck with it, it's far too much of a hassle trying to figure it all out. After all, running with the Venator, at best you can run that ship and only 380 fighters if they're all light. By counting them as points, many of these ships lose some of their compliment, and if I'm going in with a single ship, I'm not going to be happy with cutting out what I can carry because of those limits.
Which comes to another point to think about. Unless using small dedicated squadrons, fighters are fluff that mean nothing overall, only there to make the scene. And when it comes to the M.A.D system, having that magnitude of starfighters is too much of a pain to deal with. A few fighters to a squadron? That can be managed. But trying to manage to say those 380 fighters of a Venator? I don't think anyone wants to try and sort that out.
On the topic of sizes, I'd go less with what they were designed to carry and just go by the size of the fighters they were meant to carry. If they carried something around the range of an X-wing, then anything half the size, such as the Fang Fighter, could possibly double while using fighters like the Annihilator, it gets cut by half or more. But for simplicities sake, I'd go with the compliment size for anything of suggested size or less and cut in half for anything larger.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2019 12:54:35 GMT -8
So I figure I might as well add my thoughts to this discussion.
I think that using the current fleet point system to include fighters makes you lose the feel/effect of having a decent well rounded fleet. For example take the fleet that I am planning on using. it has 16 Sith Personnel Carriers, 5 Delta-Class Carriers, and 1 Harrower-class Dreadnought. With the current fleet point system I have no fighters where not using the point system I would have like 847 fighters, and yes I know that is a lot of fighters, but the reason i had behind designing this fleet the way I did was to protect the Personnel Carriers. I believe that we need to come up with a revamp system to better incorporate fighters so that it's not so limiting or we need another system that deals solely with fighters.
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Jenia Kasalle
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Post by Jenia Kasalle on Jan 12, 2019 6:04:19 GMT -8
So I figure I might as well add my thoughts to this discussion.
I think that using the current fleet point system to include fighters makes you lose the feel/effect of having a decent well rounded fleet. For example take the fleet that I am planning on using. it has 16 Sith Personnel Carriers, 5 Delta-Class Carriers, and 1 Harrower-class Dreadnought. With the current fleet point system I have no fighters where not using the point system I would have like 847 fighters, and yes I know that is a lot of fighters, but the reason i had behind designing this fleet the way I did was to protect the Personnel Carriers. I believe that we need to come up with a revamp system to better incorporate fighters so that it's not so limiting or we need another system that deals solely with fighters. I would agree on this as well, as otherwise all we do is penalizing the majority of the players here, who basically designed their fleets by capital ships, as faction leaders and moderators even recommend to go with this system in case of doubt. My current fleet on this character falls in the same category as I took advice from an expierienced person from the site of how to have an effective First Order fleet. Regarding my current plans on my second character to obtain a Lucrehulk, it wouldn't penalize me too much as the most important aspect is to get a fun mission done along with a good vessel, which the upcoming resistance faction can utilize as a mobile base, but I could imagine that a decision to make capital ships within the 256 point cap area pay points for star fighters as well, would most likely make capital ships like the Resurgent-Class or a Pellaeon-Star Destroyer even more unpopular, as your roleplay would be too much dependent on other players, who grant you the necessary star fighter compliment. These would be two major problems, which both me and other players would face, if we go from "The starfighter compliment of a ship is within the capacities of the points, which the ship costs, when it has Special gear: Hangar space" to "Each starfighter costs points, no matter if featured within a ship type or not" if such a change is planned. It would be better to either leave the system regarding this as it is or to grant players additional points, where it's stated that these can be utilized only for starfighters and support ships (as shuttles kinda tend to be featured in most prominent capital ship hangars like for example the Lambda-shuttle).
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Viox Savage
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Post by Viox Savage on Jan 14, 2019 6:33:40 GMT -8
So far, I am liking what I am reading. A lot of good points are being brought up and addressed, which is good! The only way we will find the happy middle ground is if we brainstorm this as a community.
Aside from adding my thoughts here, I really have nothing else to add at this point. So rather than clutter up with thread with randomness, I will share my thoughts and leave it to all of you until I have something to contribute constructively.
So, I am in agreement with Znalost. The only reason I don't count starfighters as part of my personal fleet points is because I feel it subtracts from the whole experience of having a complete fleet. Again, I do have a disclaimer to (hopefully) avoid any sort of muck up with it, and to be very clear that I am not actually trying to cheat the system.
I also agree with Jenia. I've always felt that building a fleet here had been and 'either/or' situation. And by that I mean, do I sacrifice the fleet I built to have starfighters or do I sacrifice all of my starfighter complements because I want the full fleet? I think out of my entire tenure on JvS I have managed to make it realistically work once. Sadly I do not have access to the information anymore so I am unable to use it as an example. If I do come across it, I will be sure to post it.
Aside from that, keep up the good work. I like how involved all of you are. It's nice to see!
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The Sable Count
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Post by The Sable Count on Jan 14, 2019 6:55:00 GMT -8
As a general rule, I usually just compared the volume they’d take up, and factored in special equipment such as the giant racks for TIEs, etc. It’s a bit of a minimalistic approach, but hey, it works.
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Viox Savage
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Post by Viox Savage on Mar 7, 2019 8:19:56 GMT -8
That actually isn't a bad idea. So, I guess it would all boil down to what a person wanted to use and on what ship. More for smaller than average starfighters and less for larger than average starfighters. Seems like a simple enough idea to follow. For example, I reduced the number of Annihilator-Class Starfighters my Kressh-Class Battlecruisers carry, due to them being quite a bit larger than most starfighters. I think I halved the number, but it's been so long since I revamped my fleet that I am not 100%. I'd have to find my notes and look back on them to be sure. But it gives an idea on how it would work.
So, is there any way we could reach a consensus on this matter and make it official?
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The Fallen
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Post by The Fallen on Mar 7, 2019 22:48:09 GMT -8
so basically the running idea so far is: Run with what the wookieepedia/database entry says it can carry. You gain X number for smaller starfighters but lose X number for larger/clunkier starfighters. Special cases (like the Lucrehulk and Venator) have a maximum cap of X number of starfighters.
is that correct?
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Viox Savage
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Post by Viox Savage on May 6, 2019 8:49:48 GMT -8
That is the general gist of what I was conveying. Ships that are designated carriers have a maximum cap on the amount of fighters the can carry. Or if their fighter count is greater than X amount. Either or would work for that.
Now all we have to do is figure a rough idea on the numbers one would either stand to gain or stand to lose when switching to different types of fighters.
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Aedon Gavin Montrose
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Post by Aedon Gavin Montrose on May 6, 2019 10:30:04 GMT -8
I'll resound what Viox said and state that - in my opinion - it should depend on what type of vessel it is. Carriers tend to exchange offensive capability for extended fighter compliments. In terms of how that plays out in our MAD system, perhaps that should be reflected in the "Special Gear" section and within the description for said ships?
And, in terms of exchanging fighter types/storage solutions, I'd think if you could work out a formula for what constitutes as one basic fighter per size, then figure in what the larger fighter would (basically) consist of, then you could work out an exchange rate.
Example: One fighter = one standard T-65 X-Wing/ARC-170. One K-Wing/E-Wing is equivalent to 1.5 X-Wings. Factor in how many of those you're exchanging, and you have your compliment.
By the way, that was a ROUGH estimate. My measurements should - in no way - reflect an actual submission to said solution.
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The Fallen
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Post by The Fallen on May 6, 2019 10:32:01 GMT -8
Guess it depends of how complex of a system we would want to create...
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Jenia Kasalle
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Post by Jenia Kasalle on May 6, 2019 10:48:40 GMT -8
I thought Offensive capabilities do only refer to the spaceship to itself, not to the fighter compliment featured inside - after all the star fighters have their own Offensive stats. If I understand things wrong, correct me, but when I calculated stuff like for example the Lucrehulk controlship, I pretty much decided the Offensive stat by the pure weapon loadout of the ship, not by the ammount of star fighters it could carry, as it would variate massively.
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Luxeria
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Post by Luxeria on May 6, 2019 11:02:21 GMT -8
I think what he meant was that carriers typically have a lower armament than destroyers for the most part in regards to offense, focusing more on carrying larger complements of fighters instead.
At its simplest, I feel anything within the starfighter range should be capable of fitting in any hangar at full compliment (25.99 meters) then anything else begins to cut down on room.
Personally, I always look at starfighters based on the average length, which for starfighters, it ranged between twelve and twenty meters. At that point, anything higher could eat up room, to which we simply build it by an average of twice the size, triple the size and so on and cut the space based on that. No need to make things overly complicated to keep things so heavily focused on designs that it forces people to go out of their way to watch their sizes for the common size starfighters.
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Jenia Kasalle
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Post by Jenia Kasalle on May 6, 2019 14:01:04 GMT -8
Fair enough.
And yeah, I would argue the same way. Like for the Lucrehulk, which I plan to hijack with my other character, I will limit carrying capacity for myself in personal to 400-500 X-Wings and similiar fighters as a maximum, since this matches with canon and I would argue, that droid fighters take less space than those. So, in the end I would keep things simple for the purpose of the RP (said Lucrehulk being a 1-ship base of operations in order to harass the First Order), while we apply to players being reasonable enough to decide what would be within the capacities of those ships and what wouldn't be.
I guess we will always have those holes within the rules, where we need to find compromises if we want to keep the system simple enough for everyone being able to work themselves into MAD combat system, if they wish to do so.
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Post by Zion Morviael [RETIRED] on Aug 11, 2019 19:35:11 GMT -8
So, at this present state, things are as such:
Ships will receive their specified compliment based on their wookieepedia article/Ship Database Entry. For Canon ships, their capacity is based on the length of the ships typical to their faction. From there, if someone got hold of a Imp-SD and wanted to fill it with X-wings, you would halve the amount of starfighters that could fit into the ship. Just as if someone wanted to put TIE Fighters into hangar bays meant for larger starfighters, you would double the amount.
For Custom ships, their capacity is going to be based on an average for what ever faction they most likely associate it with.
OR were we just going to set a baseline for each size range and go from there?
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Luxeria
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Post by Luxeria on Aug 13, 2019 5:31:46 GMT -8
I personally think that ships should simply carry their designated complement of star fighters, even smaller ones so long as it resides in the star fighter category (25.99 meters,) no matter what type of fighter they wish to use. Anything put in the support class should only be allowed half the usage. It is the simplest and easiest approach.
If we go with more and less based off the average of the set size ships something is equipped to normally carry, we need to go back through the database and edit all ships that carry starfighters with an average fighter size for it. Then we need to compile a conversion list people can use to better figure out what needs to be done. Sure, you can say that is best left to the player to figure out, but if we implement this approach, we shouldn’t expect others to have to figure it out all on their own and have something to go by.
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Post by Zion Morviael [RETIRED] on Aug 13, 2019 7:03:06 GMT -8
Ah ok, that description makes a lot more sense. Yeah I definitely agree.
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